Do the "Adobe Pre-Release Forums" suck?
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Published
Friday, March 21, 2008
at
9:50 AM
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Houston, we have a problem! Many readers of my blog are members on the pre-release site for Adobe software. Before Macromedia and Adobe merged the Macromedia email list forums were the heart and soul of the thriving user community. I personally lived on those forums and gave tons of feedback on early version of Flash 4,5,6,7,8 during the pre-release development cycles (maybe too much looking back). When the companies merged a new web based systems was put into production that made starting new threads harder. Here is the change:
OLD:
1. Send an email to flash@prerelease.macromedia.com
NEW:
1. Log into Adobe Pre-Release.
2. Click Forums
3. Click "The-forum-you-want"
4. Click "New Thread"
5. Fill out a form
6. Click send.
Now the new method looks easy but it has really added friction to creating threads and lowered the number of discussions dramatically. The "LEGO" list migrated from the old system to the new and has lowered traffic some 300+%. This is one of those simple changes that has cut off the voice of our user community to internal Adobe and I think it need to change.
It may seem trivial to some but I worry that essential feedback about our software was never sent as a result of this change. What essential feedback on CS3, Flash, Dreamweaver, Adobe Updater, Installers, Adobe AIR, Flash Player or Flex was never sent because of the friction added by the new pre-release system? I would be any sum of money that things would be better if this system were "email easy".
I have a unique perspective on this issues as a customer for 11 years (Macromedia, Adobe) and 2 years as an Adobe employee. What is awesome is that when development teams get direct feedback from customers, things turn on a dime. I personally have features in Flash Player, ActionScript, Flash and Flex that are there because I posted to a pre-release discussion list. It is scary to think we have lost this level of feedback from our user community because of a silly web form.
Here is where things change:
Please comment away on the Adobe Pre-Release Forums below!
Lead With Grenades!
Ted :)
I agree with this. Although I don't have as much time as I used to, I know this is one of the big reasons my participation has been down. Also, I really wish it didn't send out emails with the poster's name but with the email of the system. This confuses some mail clients.
I hope the system is changed one day and just operates like standard email lists
I wholeheartedly agree. It sucks. There are lots of times I think of something to post, but don't feel like going through the hassle. There are tags to put in to your subject to make it go to a certain list, but when you are a member of a bunch of lists, you're not going to remember them. So you wind up logging in to find the code, and by that point, you just use the form.
Another aspect is that a lot of people get lazy and just reply to an existing email and change the subject. But that has various side effects, as it's still really in the original thread.
Needs to change.
I couldn't agree more. Not speaking specifically on the Adobe side of things, but more or less companies overall. It seems like this unified "web forms" are a great idea, but do they realize how much easier it is to blast out an email.
May seem odd, but on 2 occasions I would have preferred this very (email based) system.
That being said, Ted, you do know the system has a email ability, right? Although, I know it does require more "specialized tags" and stuff of that nature.
+1 for a change!
Ted, you are absolutely correct. With the old email system I read a good amount of the emails, and I even posted a few (when I thought I had a well-researched and valid question, concern, or possible bug to report.) While I've continued to use pre-release software from Adobe at least as much as I used the earlier versions of Flash, perhaps even more than before, I no longer read any of the posts nor post anything myself. It's not out of protest or malevolence. I simply just don't think about it. Frankly, unless I get an email from Adobe saying a new build has been posted then I just never think to log on to the pre-release site. Email was easy and useful. I learned a lot from the emails. Sure, you say, but if I valued the emails that much why wouldn't I be bothered to log in to the pre-release site? I just don't remember to. I can't explain it other than to say that email is easy and it works. The forums sound like a good idea, but my experience has been that they just don't work for me. Maybe they work for other people...but if your facts are correct then I guess they don't work for most others either.
Good question, Ted.
It's human nature. If things are easy, people will do them. If things are even a little bit harder, it raises the bar exponentially.
I am on one of the pre-release programs, and I think that it's cool, but then again, I never knew it any other way.
Personally, I think it's pretty simple. If Adobe wants more feedback, lower the bar. If not, keep it where it is.
I'll agree that the prerelease forums aren't the easiest to use. I think they are very good in concept, but it needs to be easier for me to actually use it. I never used the old Macromedia one, so I can't compare much.
I just email you whenever I have an issue :-)
Much easier than dealing with those forums...
You hit the nail on the head Ted. I'm a member of 4 different Adobe pre-release programs, and I've given almost no feedback because it's too much of a hassle.
Hmmm... I better sign this as "Anonymous" so ya'll don't cancel my account.
I don't have any issues with forum vs. e-mail. I hate getting a ton of e-mail. The forum software does feel really clunky though. The post volume doesn't seem bad, but it's harder to work with than in much more heavily visited forums. And a full page worth of "sticky" items up front doesn't help. I'm pretty sure that note on a release from a year ago doesn't need to sit at the top anymore.
On all my prerelease efforts going on right now I have the forum set up to email me new threads in the general discussion forum. There have been times where I've tried to email back to the forum a reply or create a new thread and it was sent back to me. Only a few times have I had time to actually log in and reply. So it has cut down on my blabbering on the prerelease forums.
Definitely agree Ted, there are times where you might want to add something to the discussion and I end up not bothering because of the whole process, either going through the web or finding those tags to use in the email subject line.
Think this would be a great candidate for an AIR app, at least until the system gets revised -- which I hope it does.
It's not just forum vs. email. The prerelease forum software itself sucks. The search is slow. I still don't understand why I end up on page 5 or 6 when I first log in sometimes.
Also, when you hit the first page and every single topic is a sticky-topic. Maybe it's time to start pruning?
The download area and how to find stuff in there is also confusing. You really need to search around for what you want sometimes.
But a positive... the content from Adobe staff is usually very straightforward and helpful.
I actually don't agree. I do all my posting via the site...I don't want the extra messages coming into my inbox. I've noticed that the people who post from e-mail tend to copy the whole thread each time..that's annoying.
If you want the honest answer, I think the reason the dialogue is slower is that Adobe peeps aren't extremely quick to respond to threads, and on certain lists (I won't name names) they barely respond at all.
Totally agree with you, Ted. Since the new pre-release forums system was incorporated, my activity on the betas, etc., has dropped to almost zero.
I had enough time to fire off an email but I just don't have the time to jump through so many hoops. I'm assuming others on the lists are as busy as I am (if not more so).
Every additional step in the process is a step where you lose people and potentially valuable feedback.
Hah. And that link you posted goes to a "members only" entrance, which has no information whatsoever on how one might become a member.
Second gripe: frikkin' user names. What the hell is that all about? I always end up having the damn thing emailed to me anyhow so just use the email address and forget the fiction of user name. Sheesh!
Brett,
I will name names, Ted Patrick. That guy never responds via the forums because it isn't email easy.
1. I have no access to the person emailing directly. (Email addresses are hidden)
2. Starting a new thread makes me think, so it happens far less.
3. I cannot filter the messages as they all come from the same email address!!! I use Outlook rules to route them into folders and being on 10 pre-release lists, I get Thermo/Flex4/FP10/Lego and other all jumbled together. The single email address prevents me from sorting and prioritizing.
The worse issue is that I think many have gotten numb and accepted this worse state as the norm. What is the long term effect of this on the quality of our software? I think it will be much larger than anyone wants to realize.
My humble 2 cents,
Ted :)
I have to agree that the current solution is less than elegant. However, i also do not want my inbox inundated with messages either. AIR App? Doesn't really strike me as something I want to have running on my desktop. I agree that it needs to be email easy, but without the hassle of an overload of email.
Ted, the CAPTCHA is super long! You been having issues with spammers on your blog?
I really hate how it works as well. I actually like using it through NNTP though, however that is made difficult when I'm in the office as our IT department has the required ports closed on the firewall, so I can't use it there.
Never noticed, mostly on NNTP, however, it's not very different from any other forums..
I have to think, what really sucks there :-)
Ted, what about being able to subscribe to a list via Twitter-ish feeds? That way you could jump in and out of the dialogue slipstream without a lot of fuss.
I do agree with you that switching between lists tends to be a tedious experience, and so subconsciously maybe users focus too much attention on the one they use the most.
It also needs RSS support. I know that I can get it via email (and I do), but all of the other forums I post to I view with my RSS reader. This gives a quick way to get in and view the posts. These could even be authenticated RSS feeds if security is a concern.
I am glad to know that i am not the only one that didn't post stuff because of this. It kind of made me feel lazy, but it really is a bother to have to login to the prerelease site to post stuff especially when the prerelease site is slow. I have had times where i had to wait a minute per page i was trying to navigate too. It sounds silly to say i don't have time to go through that process that takes 5 minutes as opposed to 30 seconds, but when I am usually dealing with the stress of a deadline or trying to work through some bug it would be really nice to just send an email and not have to go through all the other steps. 5 minutes is enough to to get off track on what you were working, it can stop your momentum, etc.
all that said, the forums are better than nothing, but would love to see a change in future prerelease programs.
Thanks for starting this thread Ted.
The tool definitely isn't perfect, and I can understand the problems people have with it. The emails from the different prerelease forums all have some label in the subject that identifies the forum, so I have filters set up to look for those and sort into appropriate folders .. current unread message counts for 3 of those folders : 336, 273, 561.
I think a bigger problem may be the lack of direction from the various Adobe teams to guide what kind of feedback should be posted to the forums, especially when the forum launches before the bugbase, and the forum just gets loaded up with duplicate bug reports. And I agree with brett that the forums often feel like a one way conversation. But its hard to blame Adobe for being slow to respond .. as my unread count shows, I don't have near enough time to read all the posts.
Ted.
Yeah, I had to give up on using Outlook rules as I had the same issues as you. Some prerelease programs have 4 seperate forums and even trying to differenciate between those can get annoying.
I have resorted to NNTP (outlook express) which allows me to see properly theaded messages, and post a new message without having to remember all of the required subject tags etc to email. I only use OE for Adobe prerelease groups.
I am unsure as to the numbers of people on some of the programs but some have what I consider to be very low traffic (compared with previous releases)
Ted, did you actually have an alternative system in mind?
Various thoughts:
1. The system completely destroys formatted emails. If I forget to set my message to plain-text when I reply, it will remove anything between HTML tags. I'd like to see it strip the HTML tags only and leave whatever text is left between. If you want to do one better, replace paragraph tags with some whitespace.
2. I was never part of the Macromedia beta programs, so I never had the freedom of sending emails to start a new subject, but it certainly sounds helpful. I've rarely started a new thread, and that might be why. +1 vote from me.
3. As others have mentioned, the pages and pages of sticky threads in the web version are a barrier.
4. The prerelease site needs a better design. Some differentiation of text and colors would help a great deal, I think. Basically, determine the top things 80% of people want and create a list of big, bold links for those. Forums, Downloads, Account Settings, whatever. If there's one particular build that's the latest and greatest, make it stand out! Sometimes I'll see a huge list and I have to read every single item to figure out what's the newest thing posted.
Joe, you're absolutely right. I haven't read all of the comments so forgive me if I repeat.
* I never post new topics unless they are really, really important. I've not posted bugs, etc because I didn't want to waste 12 clicks getting to the form.
* I hate having 10+ forums go to 1 folder. That sucks!
* I REALLY miss being able to just shoot out an email. See...my email software has always (and gmail still does) remembered my To addy's but those cryptic subject prefixes you have to prepend are a horrible way to handle it. I mean...an email alias wouldn't be that hard to create...would it? :-)
I will say that I like the current forums as a forum but when you communicate via email vs sitting on Prerelease...it really bites.
I love the programs but it sucks to be a non-nntp/forum lurker on an Adobe Prerelease program, as of today.
Thanks for allowing the sounding board Ted. Make sure the powers that be get to read some of these! :-D
Ah! I thought I was alone in this but it looks like many are as frustrated as me. Even the "Subscribe to Forums" don't really work for me.
I'm OK with their WEB-based option but yes we should have our choices where I can participate in an easier way -- like the email conversation.
Err...multitasking is to blame for the "Joe, you're absolutely right." I meant Ted. :-)
I use NNTP with thunderbird and it works for reading 100% of the time, but posting through email can be problematic. But it does work. Its the only way to make the pre-release forums usable for myself.
I must admit as a member of the pre-release programs for Flex and AIR there has been quite a few issues I wanted to post but just didn't have the time (or was to lazy) to go through the steps you mentioned above . Had a faster solution been available I am sure my participation would have been much greater.
to everyone saying they don't want their email littered with beta posts, the old forums worked essentially the same way - you could read on the forum or subscribe via email. the main difference is in initiating a new thread via email. there used to be a specific address per forum. now it's a single email address and secret codes that you can't remember for each forum.
I had little problem with following threads using Gmail that applied labels to incoming posts from the pre-release forums. Where I encountered problems:
1) much mentioned "could not start a new thread" from email problem.
2) attachments did not come along with posts. Release notes were added as attachments to posts from Adobe staff.
3) could not take a discussion off-list because I could not determine the email address of a poster.
4) I hate numbered lists. Ok, hate is a strong word.
yip totally agree, I don't like doing extra things and creating accounts and logging is just a pain when you have so many different accounts.
I've been meaning to give a bit of feedback on flexbuilder but I’ve not seen a nice quick easy way to do it. Even if you wish to report a bug on flexbuilder (which you can do through the help menu, should also stick a wish list choice there as well) you have to log in. So I didn't bother as I couldn't remember which login details to use at the time. If something is not really straight forward and possible in 5 seconds then unless it’s really important to me I wouldn't bother. Well not until I had a spare 5-10 minutes, which very rarely happens.
Anyway I’d like to say that flexbuilder 3 is good, BUT why did you remove the ability to rename the extensions on files. You can't change a *.mxml or *.as file to something else now (presuming because of the refactoring capability of flexbuilder) and I find that a bit of a pain. Give us a checkbox to manually change the whole file name please.
Hi Ted,
I too am a prerelease member and honestly use the forums very little because it takes an extra effort for me to have to go to the forums page and browse the topic threads. True: I could subscribe to the topic, but again thats extra effort.
However, I participate quite a bit on the FlexCoders and FlexComponents mailing list because all topics are conveniently mailed to me. I can then (either in outlook or gmail) browse through conversations and add my input leisurely, without having to go to the prerelease website, log in and search for threads of interest. Honestly I think mailing lists are much easier to deal with in knowledge transfer and feedback forums.
I think that the pre-release has far more that needs fixing than the web vs email thing. First of all, I participate solely through my email and have no issues at all. The only thing that I don't have is the ability to attach a screenshot or file to a post (or to be able to download one as well).
I don't see how doing something via AIR will help any -- the problem is less about the technology and more about the process and the content. Having once been a PM, I understand how important a prerelease team is and how valuable it can be towards the end product -- but often the materials and team support for prerelease are lacking.
I think they are very good in concept, but it needs to be easier for me to actually use it.Thanks.